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We Need Another Programmer
February 20, 2008
This is not a typical job ad. It is a detailed explanation of the position, project, team, and why this game will succeed. It is very long, and kind of ‘ranty.’ It is written this way due to our lack of experience and because you're only receiving profit share rather than a salary. Such circumstances require more persuasion and details. But this is a very serious endeavor that will be a big part of your life, so you should want to know as many details as possible before joining. I would, at least.
If you don’t want to read the whole thing right now, at least read the 4 main selling points:
Why You Should Join Our Team:
1. I am completely convinced that you will not find an indie team with a better marketing campaign than ours, simply because I have the proper mindset and I’ve done more research. Read more under Marketing.
2. Guaranteed profit share. Goal & estimation of over $100,000 gross revenue within the first year of release. This is not just a whimsical guess. It is based on 8 months of extensive, objective market research. Read more under Compensation.
3. Guaranteed finished game to put on your resume. I am absolutely determined to not only finish this game, but ensure that it is a success. I am going to do everything in my power to make this my career. Read more under Compensation also.
4. This is an excellent team to join. Not only will you be paired up with a top-notch marketer, you also get assistance & guidance from an experienced programmer, and a young, dedicated programmer to help with tedious, grunt work. Best of all, you will join a talented, devoted artist, and a brilliant designer who will ensure that this game is perfectly designed. Read more under Team Structure.
Table of Contents:
1. Brief Game Description
2. Business Model
3. Compensation
4. Project Status
5. Technology
6. Team Structure
7. Marketing
8. Talent Needed
9. How to Apply
10. Additional Info
Team name: J Force Games
Brief Game Description:
You can read all about the game here.
The basic vision is to combine games like BV2/BV3, BEU, Crimsonland & Geometry Wars, but add an extremely diverse set of characters, greater depth, and a heavier focus on melee combat. There has never been a game like this. Currently we have 13 characters planned. Each playable character will have 3-6 moves, plus a melee. Some of the more complex moves (in terms of coding difficulty) include: teleporting, swinging (like in this video), gravitational abilities, camouflaging, controllable missiles, creation of walls, etc.
We also wish to include a built in clan system, and detailed leaderboards & stats, along with friend lists, and user & clan profiles that display their records, stats averages, recent games played, and trophies earned (trophies can be won through various achievements from both multiplayer and single player).
Also, it should be noted that this is primarily an online multiplayer game. That is the main focus. The single player & co-op survival modes are mainly there to provide a significant increase in sales. If we were releasing this as freeware we wouldn’t have the survival mode. But that doesn’t mean it will just be tacked on. Everything in this game will be of high quality.
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Business Model:
The game will be shareware for PC and Mac, and probably Linux too. We plan to first release the beta and market it as freeware. This will be critical for building a mass of players up to the final game’s release date. The final game will allow players to play a limited version of the game (less than 40% of it) for free. If they want access to all the characters, features, full survival mode, leaderboards, etc. they will have to pay to register a username (probably $15 or $20). This will also decrease piracy, because you will have to register if you want to see your stats & clan stats tracked and add friends along with everyone else, and to see your name on the official leaderboards that are displayed in the game and on our website. Pirates will never have these luxuries.
We are also already making money right now from the affiliate games and ads on this site (not much yet, we just launched the site last week). All of this money will most likely be spent on the game. Once we release the game the money will be split accordingly.
Compensation:
You will get paid. You will get a large percentage of profit. And I guarantee there will be profit. I cannot guarantee how much, but my goal and my prediction, is a gross revenue of at least $100,000 within the first year of release. At $20 that's only 5,000 copies sold, and that's not even including affiliate and ad revenue, which I think will bring in at least an additional $10k. Now I know that may sound naïve, and I know that most indie games sell very few copies, but this is not just some whimsical, blind guess I’m making. This is based on 8 months of extensive, objective market research (more on that later).
The percentage you receive will depend on how much you contribute. We were thinking about using a cap model, with something like 30% to programming, 30% to art, and 40% to design, testing, marketing, and business. So if you do half of the programming work you would receive 15%. But keep in mind, this model has not yet been discussed in detail, therefore it is nowhere near set in stone.
And I understand if you have doubts about this game making large sums of money…or any money at all. Although I can’t guarantee a certain dollar amount, I can guarantee the experience and the addition of a completed game under your belt (assuming you stay on the team). That is a promise. I would literally bet my life on it. I’ve already made the commitment to this project, and I’m NEVER going to turn away from it. The only way this game doesn’t get finished is if I die, or become permanently incarcerated or incapacitated. One of my goals with this post is to stress my dedication to this game and company. This game is the #1 priority in my life. This WILL be my career...eventually. There are no other jobs that could possibly make me change my mind. I’ve wanted to design video games all my life, and this is the best, most appealing path to take if I want to achieve that role. That is why I’m absolutely determined to not only finish this game, but ensure that it is a success. If we lose a crucial team member I will stop at nothing to find a replacement. If our programmers can’t figure out something or can’t fix a bug, I will find a programmer who can, or come up with an alternate solution. If there are design flaws, we will keep iterating and iterating and iterating until the players are happy. If the team members don’t want to put the work into such iterations, I will find ones who will. If we don’t have enough players, I will keep marketing and promoting until we do have enough...and then promote some more. I am going to make this game a success by any means necessary. When there is a will, there is a way.
And for all you other doubters and naysayers who are totally skeptical of what I’m saying here, at least sign up for our mailing list. That way you’ll know when the game comes out and you’ll be able to see its success…and you’ll get to hear me say I told you so.
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Project Status:
We started designing this game a few months ago. We have a design document, but it is incomplete. The core of it is finished, with the first few pages being completely detailed out, but the rest of it is hollowed and basically just written in a shopping list fashion. This is not because of any lack of commitment on our part. It’s just that those details, character moves, features, etc. do not need to be known to start prototyping and developing the core of this game. The core engine will most likely go through many changes, so it would be a waste of time to finish the rest of the design document without a true grasp of how the game will play.
We also have concept art done for almost every character. Here’s a taste:
..........Click here to enlarge..........................................Click here to enlarge..........
.........
You should’ve already seen the one gameplay concept image. And there’s also this marketing brochure thing that Jordan made for a college assignment. I don’t know if we’ll use it for anything, but it’s definitely cool and it will make you a little more familiar with our game. Check it out (it's a pdf file).
Initially we didn’t want to start development until Jonny finished the 3d Buzz XNA Class (which is lasting much longer than expected), but we decided to have Justin start coding the game while Jonny continues to learn programming (both with 3d Buzz and at college), and have him assist Justin once he reaches a higher level of capability. After many weeks of designing, Justin made a very, very early prototype with Java. He hasn’t been able to produce anything else due to time constraints. To avoid writing boilerplate code, he decided we should switch to Torque Game Builder. Jonny made a very quick prototype with this engine in a couple of hours, which was actually more complete then Justin’s prototype. That is not an indication or insinuation of their skill. It is only a testament to the power of TGB.
But neither of those early prototypes will be the foundation for our game, so we will essentially be starting from the ground up. We need to add an experienced, dedicated programmer to the team or development will last far too long.
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Technology:
With the hopes of getting the best programmer possible, and since we are starting from the ground up code-wise, the technology could be up to you. If the circumstances are right, we could use any programming language or game engine you want. There is only one non-negotiable requirement: it must have multi-platform support. We want to code the game once and run it on PC and Mac (or at least spend very little time porting). A Mac version is absolutely critical, as it can increase sales by more than 50%. Linux doesn’t really matter, but if we’re already supporting PC and Mac then it should be relatively easy to pop out a Linux version too, since we’ll probably have fairly platform-independent code. Plus, Jordan uses Mac and Justin uses Linux, sooo...yea.
Also, you might be preferred if you use TGB since I’ve already dropped $250 for the pro version. But that’s not a big deal. I’m fine with eating that expense if we can’t find a Torque user.
And one of the original goals for this project was to get approved for Xbox Live Arcade, but that is very difficult and highly unlikely to happen, so right now we are completely focused on the PC market. But I felt I should mention it here because, if by some stroke of luck we do get approved, it would obviously bring up different technology issues.
And we use basecamp for communication and project management.
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Team Structure:
You can see our team structure on the home page.
Here is our artist's website.
More about our programmers:
Justin is an SCJD and has 7 years programming experience in a variety of languages, but he really doesn’t have enough time to commit to the project. He’s a fulltime software developer (integration software), he goes to college, and he lives with his fiancé, so his time is pretty limited. He has worked on several of his own games and engines, but has not completed anything more than Tetris & Breakout clones. If you’d like to learn more about Justin you can read his posts on Gamedev (though he hasn’t posted in over 2 years). He also has this blog that he occasionally writes in.
Jonny is not as experienced, but he really does have a natural programmer’s mind and is very tech savvy. He studied a little programming in high school, and is now a freshman at UNT majoring in computer science. In his first semester there he got first place for the class’s final project, which required each student to create a Battleship AI to compete against each other’s AI in a tournament. He’s also currently working on a top-down shooter in the aforementioned XNA class. He is confident in his ability to code this whole game except for the networking features. But his inexperience would likely lead to much longer development time and many compromises in quality, so that is not an option right now.
That’s where you come in. We really need you to be the lead programmer and to write the majority of the code. Justin will help implement some of the high end stuff and be there for assistance or guidance, while Jonny will mostly write the simpler, grunt work programming. This is just the way I foresee things happening at least.
And you will of course have an influence in the design of this game. We have a fairly democratic design process, so don’t think we’re just gonna boss you around and ignore your ideas. We make design decisions together as a team.
More about Ty:
Ty is one of the main reasons I’m so confident in this project. The man is just brilliant, and one of the most intelligent people you will ever meet. He will graduate college with a 4.0 GPA, and will then work on his Masters degree in Biblical Studies. He won an award for best Greek student at his college, he’s in near perfect physical condition, he’s a black-belt in Jukado, he’s a part-time guitar instructor, and one of the best basketball players I personally know. He could also easily be a professional gamer if he pursued it. The point is that he’s good at a lot of things; anything he puts his mind to. And he’ ll be putting his mind into this game. I feel that we’ll be able to solve any design or management issues that will inevitably arise with him on the team. Trust me; you don’t want to pass up the opportunity to work with a mind like this.
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Marketing:
I mentioned the market research above. That is what I’ve been spending the majority of my time on. Entertainment and amusement in my life have become almost non-existent. And I don’t care, because I enjoy doing this. What I’ve done is heavily examine and study the indie scene, game sales statistics, other game developer’s marketing campaigns, and our target market. I’ve also read several books, articles, guides, blogs and thousands of forum posts on internet marketing, video game marketing, PR tactics, game design, the business of game development, and SEO. I’ve asked several developers for their sales stats, especially other top-down shooter developers, and I’ve actually surveyed and really studied several gaming forums to better identify our target audience. In addition, and maybe most importantly, I’ve researched the crap out of the top-down shooter genre. I feel like I know almost every top-down shooter in the world, along with their varying levels of popularity, and their player’s likes and dislikes. One tactic that I used quite a bit and proved very useful, was going to different forums and then doing a search for all the games that I was studying. For example, I would go to Game #1’s forum and do a search for Games #2-10, and see what the players were saying about each of those games, if they were saying anything at all. Then I would repeat the process for each game. This gave me a lot of insight into our target market’s mind.
My biggest discovery though, is that these indie developers are not putting anywhere near the amount of effort into marketing that they should be. This is HUGE! This is the number reason why I’m so confident that our game is going to be a success. I can’t find a single indie dev that has a complete, thorough marketing campaign as I will have. Literally, you can pick out any one of them and I could make a list of marketing tactics they aren’t doing; tactics that would be bringing them dramatic increases of traffic and sales. These tactics are proven effective and are not anything new, and they don’t really require skill. They just require the knowledge of them and the willingness to do them. Some of these devs are doing a few of them, but like I said, nobody is doing ALL of them. Nobody has the complete package. They are leaving money on the table. I will not leave money on the table. I will have the complete package. People are going to know about our game; lots of people.
The problem with most indies is that they don't have marketing mentalities. They think marketing hurts your integrity, like these guys. This leads to very few teams with full-time marketers. This is a mistake if you’re trying to make money. A marketer is just as essential as a programmer or artist. There is always another way to market a game. ALWAYS. No matter what stage of development you’re in. It is easily a full-time job, especially in my case since I’m also handling all the business aspects like accounting, customer service, reading & writing contracts, website maintenance, etc.
But all these lacking marketing campaigns actually make me question the passion of some of these developers. I mean, I care so much about this game, and I will be so proud of it that I will want to tell the whole world about it. I’m going to do everything in my power to tell as many people as possible. I owe it to the team for working so hard on the game. I want them, and me, to have as much of a reward as possible. And another big reason is the eventual fans. The more marketing I do, the more players we will have, and the more valuable and enjoyable our game will be. Read this post for more on that.
One more thing I should mention here in this section: We will be running at least one commercial on G4TV (it’s actually much cheaper than you think), so that is definitely something to be excited about.
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Talent needed:
We need an experienced programmer who wants to spend most of their time on this game. We need this to be at least a 2nd or 3rd priority in your life. If you have a job, and a girl, and you’re in school, then please don’t apply. You may have one or two of those, but if you have all three than it just won’t work. This is a very serious endeavor which will require a great deal of time from you. We need somebody who wants to pour all their time and effort into this game. We want an animal. A workhorse. Somebody who is obsessively dedicated…like me. The closer you are to this, the more likely we are to recruit you. Dedication and passion are the keys to success.
You will not code this entire game, but you need to be confident in your ability to do so. We don't want to make any technical requirements apart from the above mentioned multi-platform support. Basically we want you to try to sell us your preferred technology.
You also get major preference if you live near Dallas like the rest of us. But in the end, we really want the best programmer possible, even if it means working with you remotely. We’re already working with our artist remotely most of the time, as he goes to college in Abilene and is only able to attend meetings during school breaks.
And your name must start with J.
I’m kidding……though it would be cool.
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How To Apply:
To apply, send an email to jeremyeden85[at]yahoo.com (replace [at] with @...duh).
Please put your name in the subject line, followed by “programmer”.
The email should contain:
-first and last name, age, and location
-amount of time per day/week you’d be able to commit
-previous experience and any work you can show (be as detailed as possible, I don’t care how irrelevant you think it is)
-language and/or engine you would like to use for this game
-your favorite video game and why (you can make this brief)
I would like to respond to every applicant, but I'm expecting many, so I don't know if we'll have time to do so. Most likely we will only respond to the ones we're interested in talking to further. When we find our guy, I will announce it here in the blog.
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Additional Info:
We plan to have Hubnester (aka Machinae Supremacy) do our music. They did the music for the award winning Jets N Guns.
We plan on having an anime style opening cut-scene in the game. Not only will this be freakin sweet, but it will also be very important for promotion.
This team is comprised of 2 brothers, and long time best friends. That means better team chemistry and a higher probability of the team sticking together. It is better than a team of strangers.
This has been posted in over 60 relevant forums. I will also be contacting several dozen programmers through Myspace. Try to find somebody else that's put this much of an effort into finding a team member. If I put this much effort into that, just imagine how much more effort I will put into finding players.
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Feedback:
Leave a comment, you don't even have to register. Any feedback is welcome. Be as blunt and harsh as possible. I am immune to emotional pain.
And if you post a reply in the forum you saw this in, there's a good chance I won't see it since I've posted this in over 60 forums.
If you don’t want to read the whole thing right now, at least read the 4 main selling points:
Why You Should Join Our Team:
1. I am completely convinced that you will not find an indie team with a better marketing campaign than ours, simply because I have the proper mindset and I’ve done more research. Read more under Marketing.
2. Guaranteed profit share. Goal & estimation of over $100,000 gross revenue within the first year of release. This is not just a whimsical guess. It is based on 8 months of extensive, objective market research. Read more under Compensation.
3. Guaranteed finished game to put on your resume. I am absolutely determined to not only finish this game, but ensure that it is a success. I am going to do everything in my power to make this my career. Read more under Compensation also.
4. This is an excellent team to join. Not only will you be paired up with a top-notch marketer, you also get assistance & guidance from an experienced programmer, and a young, dedicated programmer to help with tedious, grunt work. Best of all, you will join a talented, devoted artist, and a brilliant designer who will ensure that this game is perfectly designed. Read more under Team Structure.
Table of Contents:
1. Brief Game Description
2. Business Model
3. Compensation
4. Project Status
5. Technology
6. Team Structure
7. Marketing
8. Talent Needed
9. How to Apply
10. Additional Info
Team name: J Force Games
Brief Game Description:
You can read all about the game here.
The basic vision is to combine games like BV2/BV3, BEU, Crimsonland & Geometry Wars, but add an extremely diverse set of characters, greater depth, and a heavier focus on melee combat. There has never been a game like this. Currently we have 13 characters planned. Each playable character will have 3-6 moves, plus a melee. Some of the more complex moves (in terms of coding difficulty) include: teleporting, swinging (like in this video), gravitational abilities, camouflaging, controllable missiles, creation of walls, etc.
We also wish to include a built in clan system, and detailed leaderboards & stats, along with friend lists, and user & clan profiles that display their records, stats averages, recent games played, and trophies earned (trophies can be won through various achievements from both multiplayer and single player).
Also, it should be noted that this is primarily an online multiplayer game. That is the main focus. The single player & co-op survival modes are mainly there to provide a significant increase in sales. If we were releasing this as freeware we wouldn’t have the survival mode. But that doesn’t mean it will just be tacked on. Everything in this game will be of high quality.
Back to Top
Business Model:
The game will be shareware for PC and Mac, and probably Linux too. We plan to first release the beta and market it as freeware. This will be critical for building a mass of players up to the final game’s release date. The final game will allow players to play a limited version of the game (less than 40% of it) for free. If they want access to all the characters, features, full survival mode, leaderboards, etc. they will have to pay to register a username (probably $15 or $20). This will also decrease piracy, because you will have to register if you want to see your stats & clan stats tracked and add friends along with everyone else, and to see your name on the official leaderboards that are displayed in the game and on our website. Pirates will never have these luxuries.
We are also already making money right now from the affiliate games and ads on this site (not much yet, we just launched the site last week). All of this money will most likely be spent on the game. Once we release the game the money will be split accordingly.
Compensation:
You will get paid. You will get a large percentage of profit. And I guarantee there will be profit. I cannot guarantee how much, but my goal and my prediction, is a gross revenue of at least $100,000 within the first year of release. At $20 that's only 5,000 copies sold, and that's not even including affiliate and ad revenue, which I think will bring in at least an additional $10k. Now I know that may sound naïve, and I know that most indie games sell very few copies, but this is not just some whimsical, blind guess I’m making. This is based on 8 months of extensive, objective market research (more on that later).
The percentage you receive will depend on how much you contribute. We were thinking about using a cap model, with something like 30% to programming, 30% to art, and 40% to design, testing, marketing, and business. So if you do half of the programming work you would receive 15%. But keep in mind, this model has not yet been discussed in detail, therefore it is nowhere near set in stone.
And I understand if you have doubts about this game making large sums of money…or any money at all. Although I can’t guarantee a certain dollar amount, I can guarantee the experience and the addition of a completed game under your belt (assuming you stay on the team). That is a promise. I would literally bet my life on it. I’ve already made the commitment to this project, and I’m NEVER going to turn away from it. The only way this game doesn’t get finished is if I die, or become permanently incarcerated or incapacitated. One of my goals with this post is to stress my dedication to this game and company. This game is the #1 priority in my life. This WILL be my career...eventually. There are no other jobs that could possibly make me change my mind. I’ve wanted to design video games all my life, and this is the best, most appealing path to take if I want to achieve that role. That is why I’m absolutely determined to not only finish this game, but ensure that it is a success. If we lose a crucial team member I will stop at nothing to find a replacement. If our programmers can’t figure out something or can’t fix a bug, I will find a programmer who can, or come up with an alternate solution. If there are design flaws, we will keep iterating and iterating and iterating until the players are happy. If the team members don’t want to put the work into such iterations, I will find ones who will. If we don’t have enough players, I will keep marketing and promoting until we do have enough...and then promote some more. I am going to make this game a success by any means necessary. When there is a will, there is a way.
And for all you other doubters and naysayers who are totally skeptical of what I’m saying here, at least sign up for our mailing list. That way you’ll know when the game comes out and you’ll be able to see its success…and you’ll get to hear me say I told you so.
Back to Top
Project Status:
We started designing this game a few months ago. We have a design document, but it is incomplete. The core of it is finished, with the first few pages being completely detailed out, but the rest of it is hollowed and basically just written in a shopping list fashion. This is not because of any lack of commitment on our part. It’s just that those details, character moves, features, etc. do not need to be known to start prototyping and developing the core of this game. The core engine will most likely go through many changes, so it would be a waste of time to finish the rest of the design document without a true grasp of how the game will play.
We also have concept art done for almost every character. Here’s a taste:
..........Click here to enlarge..........................................Click here to enlarge..........
.........You should’ve already seen the one gameplay concept image. And there’s also this marketing brochure thing that Jordan made for a college assignment. I don’t know if we’ll use it for anything, but it’s definitely cool and it will make you a little more familiar with our game. Check it out (it's a pdf file).
Initially we didn’t want to start development until Jonny finished the 3d Buzz XNA Class (which is lasting much longer than expected), but we decided to have Justin start coding the game while Jonny continues to learn programming (both with 3d Buzz and at college), and have him assist Justin once he reaches a higher level of capability. After many weeks of designing, Justin made a very, very early prototype with Java. He hasn’t been able to produce anything else due to time constraints. To avoid writing boilerplate code, he decided we should switch to Torque Game Builder. Jonny made a very quick prototype with this engine in a couple of hours, which was actually more complete then Justin’s prototype. That is not an indication or insinuation of their skill. It is only a testament to the power of TGB.
But neither of those early prototypes will be the foundation for our game, so we will essentially be starting from the ground up. We need to add an experienced, dedicated programmer to the team or development will last far too long.
Back to Top
Technology:
With the hopes of getting the best programmer possible, and since we are starting from the ground up code-wise, the technology could be up to you. If the circumstances are right, we could use any programming language or game engine you want. There is only one non-negotiable requirement: it must have multi-platform support. We want to code the game once and run it on PC and Mac (or at least spend very little time porting). A Mac version is absolutely critical, as it can increase sales by more than 50%. Linux doesn’t really matter, but if we’re already supporting PC and Mac then it should be relatively easy to pop out a Linux version too, since we’ll probably have fairly platform-independent code. Plus, Jordan uses Mac and Justin uses Linux, sooo...yea.
Also, you might be preferred if you use TGB since I’ve already dropped $250 for the pro version. But that’s not a big deal. I’m fine with eating that expense if we can’t find a Torque user.
And one of the original goals for this project was to get approved for Xbox Live Arcade, but that is very difficult and highly unlikely to happen, so right now we are completely focused on the PC market. But I felt I should mention it here because, if by some stroke of luck we do get approved, it would obviously bring up different technology issues.
And we use basecamp for communication and project management.
Back to Top
Team Structure:
You can see our team structure on the home page.
Here is our artist's website.
More about our programmers:
Justin is an SCJD and has 7 years programming experience in a variety of languages, but he really doesn’t have enough time to commit to the project. He’s a fulltime software developer (integration software), he goes to college, and he lives with his fiancé, so his time is pretty limited. He has worked on several of his own games and engines, but has not completed anything more than Tetris & Breakout clones. If you’d like to learn more about Justin you can read his posts on Gamedev (though he hasn’t posted in over 2 years). He also has this blog that he occasionally writes in.
Jonny is not as experienced, but he really does have a natural programmer’s mind and is very tech savvy. He studied a little programming in high school, and is now a freshman at UNT majoring in computer science. In his first semester there he got first place for the class’s final project, which required each student to create a Battleship AI to compete against each other’s AI in a tournament. He’s also currently working on a top-down shooter in the aforementioned XNA class. He is confident in his ability to code this whole game except for the networking features. But his inexperience would likely lead to much longer development time and many compromises in quality, so that is not an option right now.
That’s where you come in. We really need you to be the lead programmer and to write the majority of the code. Justin will help implement some of the high end stuff and be there for assistance or guidance, while Jonny will mostly write the simpler, grunt work programming. This is just the way I foresee things happening at least.
And you will of course have an influence in the design of this game. We have a fairly democratic design process, so don’t think we’re just gonna boss you around and ignore your ideas. We make design decisions together as a team.
More about Ty:
Ty is one of the main reasons I’m so confident in this project. The man is just brilliant, and one of the most intelligent people you will ever meet. He will graduate college with a 4.0 GPA, and will then work on his Masters degree in Biblical Studies. He won an award for best Greek student at his college, he’s in near perfect physical condition, he’s a black-belt in Jukado, he’s a part-time guitar instructor, and one of the best basketball players I personally know. He could also easily be a professional gamer if he pursued it. The point is that he’s good at a lot of things; anything he puts his mind to. And he’ ll be putting his mind into this game. I feel that we’ll be able to solve any design or management issues that will inevitably arise with him on the team. Trust me; you don’t want to pass up the opportunity to work with a mind like this.
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Marketing:
I mentioned the market research above. That is what I’ve been spending the majority of my time on. Entertainment and amusement in my life have become almost non-existent. And I don’t care, because I enjoy doing this. What I’ve done is heavily examine and study the indie scene, game sales statistics, other game developer’s marketing campaigns, and our target market. I’ve also read several books, articles, guides, blogs and thousands of forum posts on internet marketing, video game marketing, PR tactics, game design, the business of game development, and SEO. I’ve asked several developers for their sales stats, especially other top-down shooter developers, and I’ve actually surveyed and really studied several gaming forums to better identify our target audience. In addition, and maybe most importantly, I’ve researched the crap out of the top-down shooter genre. I feel like I know almost every top-down shooter in the world, along with their varying levels of popularity, and their player’s likes and dislikes. One tactic that I used quite a bit and proved very useful, was going to different forums and then doing a search for all the games that I was studying. For example, I would go to Game #1’s forum and do a search for Games #2-10, and see what the players were saying about each of those games, if they were saying anything at all. Then I would repeat the process for each game. This gave me a lot of insight into our target market’s mind.
My biggest discovery though, is that these indie developers are not putting anywhere near the amount of effort into marketing that they should be. This is HUGE! This is the number reason why I’m so confident that our game is going to be a success. I can’t find a single indie dev that has a complete, thorough marketing campaign as I will have. Literally, you can pick out any one of them and I could make a list of marketing tactics they aren’t doing; tactics that would be bringing them dramatic increases of traffic and sales. These tactics are proven effective and are not anything new, and they don’t really require skill. They just require the knowledge of them and the willingness to do them. Some of these devs are doing a few of them, but like I said, nobody is doing ALL of them. Nobody has the complete package. They are leaving money on the table. I will not leave money on the table. I will have the complete package. People are going to know about our game; lots of people.
The problem with most indies is that they don't have marketing mentalities. They think marketing hurts your integrity, like these guys. This leads to very few teams with full-time marketers. This is a mistake if you’re trying to make money. A marketer is just as essential as a programmer or artist. There is always another way to market a game. ALWAYS. No matter what stage of development you’re in. It is easily a full-time job, especially in my case since I’m also handling all the business aspects like accounting, customer service, reading & writing contracts, website maintenance, etc.
But all these lacking marketing campaigns actually make me question the passion of some of these developers. I mean, I care so much about this game, and I will be so proud of it that I will want to tell the whole world about it. I’m going to do everything in my power to tell as many people as possible. I owe it to the team for working so hard on the game. I want them, and me, to have as much of a reward as possible. And another big reason is the eventual fans. The more marketing I do, the more players we will have, and the more valuable and enjoyable our game will be. Read this post for more on that.
One more thing I should mention here in this section: We will be running at least one commercial on G4TV (it’s actually much cheaper than you think), so that is definitely something to be excited about.
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Talent needed:
We need an experienced programmer who wants to spend most of their time on this game. We need this to be at least a 2nd or 3rd priority in your life. If you have a job, and a girl, and you’re in school, then please don’t apply. You may have one or two of those, but if you have all three than it just won’t work. This is a very serious endeavor which will require a great deal of time from you. We need somebody who wants to pour all their time and effort into this game. We want an animal. A workhorse. Somebody who is obsessively dedicated…like me. The closer you are to this, the more likely we are to recruit you. Dedication and passion are the keys to success.
You will not code this entire game, but you need to be confident in your ability to do so. We don't want to make any technical requirements apart from the above mentioned multi-platform support. Basically we want you to try to sell us your preferred technology.
You also get major preference if you live near Dallas like the rest of us. But in the end, we really want the best programmer possible, even if it means working with you remotely. We’re already working with our artist remotely most of the time, as he goes to college in Abilene and is only able to attend meetings during school breaks.
And your name must start with J.
I’m kidding……though it would be cool.
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How To Apply:
To apply, send an email to jeremyeden85[at]yahoo.com (replace [at] with @...duh).
Please put your name in the subject line, followed by “programmer”.
The email should contain:
-first and last name, age, and location
-amount of time per day/week you’d be able to commit
-previous experience and any work you can show (be as detailed as possible, I don’t care how irrelevant you think it is)
-language and/or engine you would like to use for this game
-your favorite video game and why (you can make this brief)
I would like to respond to every applicant, but I'm expecting many, so I don't know if we'll have time to do so. Most likely we will only respond to the ones we're interested in talking to further. When we find our guy, I will announce it here in the blog.
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Additional Info:
We plan to have Hubnester (aka Machinae Supremacy) do our music. They did the music for the award winning Jets N Guns.
We plan on having an anime style opening cut-scene in the game. Not only will this be freakin sweet, but it will also be very important for promotion.
This team is comprised of 2 brothers, and long time best friends. That means better team chemistry and a higher probability of the team sticking together. It is better than a team of strangers.
This has been posted in over 60 relevant forums. I will also be contacting several dozen programmers through Myspace. Try to find somebody else that's put this much of an effort into finding a team member. If I put this much effort into that, just imagine how much more effort I will put into finding players.
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Feedback:
Leave a comment, you don't even have to register. Any feedback is welcome. Be as blunt and harsh as possible. I am immune to emotional pain.
And if you post a reply in the forum you saw this in, there's a good chance I won't see it since I've posted this in over 60 forums.
Comments
February 20, 2008February 20, 2008
Brad Bishop wrote:
What language do you plan on using? I'm really familiar with Basic4GL and I believe I could write a game like this in B4GL. Only problem is that it isn't available for Mac, just PC.
If you're willing to put up with this, I might be interested...
If you're willing to put up with this, I might be interested...
February 20, 2008
Paul Ott wrote:
I gotta say, as another Indie developer, this is a great piece of writing. If I wasn't up to my neck in my own project, I'd seriously consider giving you a hand. It properly conveys your passion, confidence, and commitment to quality. I wish you the best of luck with your game.
February 20, 2008
gz wrote:
the hardest thing to find for a game is the lead programmer. you should really outline this in huge bold letters on your posts especially considering you posted this on 50+ websites.
the big problem you face here is that
A. real lead programmers who get things done are extremely hard to find
B. the ones that do exist don't want to make other peoples games
C. you are a marketing guy and you are the "mind" behind the project
it's not very encouraging to say "hey if you join we have all these other people who can help you out p.s. you will be doing 90% of the work".
your commitment seems genuine but considering no one on the project has any real game development experience (finished products) most of what you say is fluff.
from what i read, the only person with a true commitment to the project is you. everyone else is kind of hanging on saying they will DO SOMETHING when you get a real programmer. there seems to be very little physical work on this project, most of it seems like it's in your head. your commitment also means very little because you are not a programmer and require other people to make your dream come true.
even if you hire someone, that's only a fraction of the problem solved. let's say the guy you hire wants to make it in language / engine X. what happens if they quit? all the work they did is now worthless. not to mention the two other programmers on the team may not be familiar with the engine / language they choose. what if they aren't very good, but are reliable? what if they are good but unreliable? i've seen and heard about a lot of indie projects and finding ideal people is very difficult, especially the role you want.
the biggest problem is when the main designer doesn't have the ability to finish the game themselves. you honestly cannot rely on other people to finish your idea for you, even if they like it or say they are commited. that said, you can get lucky and find a really great person. you can't depend on that though.
i think you would probably be better off being a pure marketer for indie games and simply approach games that you like and give them a sales pitch.
i'm not saying this can't happen, but i am saying you have a lot of odds stacked against you with your current set-up. i actually like top down shooters by the way, and the project sounds neat, but there are too many issues for me to say i honestly believe this will ever get made properly, if at all.
the big problem you face here is that
A. real lead programmers who get things done are extremely hard to find
B. the ones that do exist don't want to make other peoples games
C. you are a marketing guy and you are the "mind" behind the project
it's not very encouraging to say "hey if you join we have all these other people who can help you out p.s. you will be doing 90% of the work".
your commitment seems genuine but considering no one on the project has any real game development experience (finished products) most of what you say is fluff.
from what i read, the only person with a true commitment to the project is you. everyone else is kind of hanging on saying they will DO SOMETHING when you get a real programmer. there seems to be very little physical work on this project, most of it seems like it's in your head. your commitment also means very little because you are not a programmer and require other people to make your dream come true.
even if you hire someone, that's only a fraction of the problem solved. let's say the guy you hire wants to make it in language / engine X. what happens if they quit? all the work they did is now worthless. not to mention the two other programmers on the team may not be familiar with the engine / language they choose. what if they aren't very good, but are reliable? what if they are good but unreliable? i've seen and heard about a lot of indie projects and finding ideal people is very difficult, especially the role you want.
the biggest problem is when the main designer doesn't have the ability to finish the game themselves. you honestly cannot rely on other people to finish your idea for you, even if they like it or say they are commited. that said, you can get lucky and find a really great person. you can't depend on that though.
i think you would probably be better off being a pure marketer for indie games and simply approach games that you like and give them a sales pitch.
i'm not saying this can't happen, but i am saying you have a lot of odds stacked against you with your current set-up. i actually like top down shooters by the way, and the project sounds neat, but there are too many issues for me to say i honestly believe this will ever get made properly, if at all.
February 21, 2008
Jeremy wrote:
I am very aware of the odds stacked against me, but there is no potential problem that we will not be able to solve. You only mention two problems in your post, the rest of it is just critiques and known facts.
Solution to Problem #1:
If the programmer does a lot of work and then quits, his work is NOT worthless. We still own it. This is standard contractual terms. He will still receive profit based on what he contributed. And the two other programmers are going to be familiar with the language that we will be using. That is a factor when sifting through applicants. And besides, it doesn't take long to learn a different programming language or engine if you're already fluent in one. It's the concepts and principles that are most important, not the syntax.
But let's say for some crazy reason our two programmers have no idea how to finish what this new programmer started. We would either- A: get a new programmer, or B: have our remaining programmers learn what they lack.
Solution to Problem #2:
My brother, Jonny, is a programmer. We originally conceived this idea together. Both of us, along with Ty, are main designers. This means we have a main designer who is also a programmer. And there's no way he's leaving the team. He's my freakin brother. I'll just put him in a chokehold or something if he even thinks about it. But that's not a possibility.
So worst case scenario: we can't get any programmers to commit to the project besides Jonny. While this is certainly not ideal, it's not the end of the world. Jonny has already stated he his confident in his ability to program this whole game barring the networking. So he would just buckle down and do some more studying. The game would take a lot longer to complete, but it would be completed eventually.
Solution to Problem #1:
If the programmer does a lot of work and then quits, his work is NOT worthless. We still own it. This is standard contractual terms. He will still receive profit based on what he contributed. And the two other programmers are going to be familiar with the language that we will be using. That is a factor when sifting through applicants. And besides, it doesn't take long to learn a different programming language or engine if you're already fluent in one. It's the concepts and principles that are most important, not the syntax.
But let's say for some crazy reason our two programmers have no idea how to finish what this new programmer started. We would either- A: get a new programmer, or B: have our remaining programmers learn what they lack.
Solution to Problem #2:
My brother, Jonny, is a programmer. We originally conceived this idea together. Both of us, along with Ty, are main designers. This means we have a main designer who is also a programmer. And there's no way he's leaving the team. He's my freakin brother. I'll just put him in a chokehold or something if he even thinks about it. But that's not a possibility.
So worst case scenario: we can't get any programmers to commit to the project besides Jonny. While this is certainly not ideal, it's not the end of the world. Jonny has already stated he his confident in his ability to program this whole game barring the networking. So he would just buckle down and do some more studying. The game would take a lot longer to complete, but it would be completed eventually.
February 21, 2008
Jeremy wrote:
And oh yea, that is good advice though about just doing contract marketing work. Once I realized how much better I could market these games than all these other people, I seriously considered that. I decided though that I could not divide my commitment between my game and someone else's. And quitting my game is completely out of the question. I've already made the promise to this team and myself to finish this game. I'm not going to break it.
February 21, 2008
gautam wrote:
If he is confident that he can do it then I suggest you let him do it barring the networking part. You can do the networking part in the next iteration or get a help of a network programmer. In the end with or without networking you will get a game to shop around with. Far easier to recruit good people if you can show results.
February 21, 2008
Jeremy wrote:
If I didn't think we could recruit a good programmer then we would probably do that. We don't want to do that though because the game will take much longer to complete due to his inexperience.
February 21, 2008
gz wrote:
it's good to know you have at least one programmer on the team for certain, i wasn't entirely sure of the situation. i really don't have anything else to say because you do have a back-up plan, i think what gautam suggested is the best plan and the realist in me thinks you won't find anyone at this stage who will get anything significant done.
so i think you will end up in a scenario where you will need to produce something in order to catch the attention of the right people. generally speaking you will only attract people to this game of the caliber of that you present yourself. if you had some kind of tech demo of the game you could show off this would help immensely in recruiting. people would see you are serious about this and the right people would be interested in joining up. right now, it still is a bunch of words even though you present yourself very seriously.
about my initial remark about a programmers work being useless if they quit, not every programmer comments their work and i can tell you if i joined on a project and they told me there was exiting work, i would probably scrap most of it, or at the very least rewrite a lot of it. for 2-d games you really only need one main programmer, trying to mix and match work on a large scale doesn't work well.
in addition, i agree with you that it is easy to adapt to new engines and languages but as a programmer myself i can honestly tell you there are some languages and engines i would never use in a million years.
for the record i used to make games with my brother, but this isn't the case any more. his focus is more concentrated on different fields now, although he still has a passion for games it's not his priority. it's probably the best connection you can have to someone who is working on a game with you, but it still doesn't mean they are going to go through with it. my situation was a role reversal of yours (i was the workhorse), and i can tell you it was very hard to stay motivated doing projects even though i cared a lot about them.
you are pretty optimistic about this getting made but even that is only half the battle. getting a game finished is always great, but it won't always be as good as you hoped. this is the true battle and i think the fact that you have no experienced programmer is always going to be a huge issue.
good luck on this, but like i said, i doubt you will find anyone worthwhile right now simply because you don't have enough physical work to show off.
so i think you will end up in a scenario where you will need to produce something in order to catch the attention of the right people. generally speaking you will only attract people to this game of the caliber of that you present yourself. if you had some kind of tech demo of the game you could show off this would help immensely in recruiting. people would see you are serious about this and the right people would be interested in joining up. right now, it still is a bunch of words even though you present yourself very seriously.
about my initial remark about a programmers work being useless if they quit, not every programmer comments their work and i can tell you if i joined on a project and they told me there was exiting work, i would probably scrap most of it, or at the very least rewrite a lot of it. for 2-d games you really only need one main programmer, trying to mix and match work on a large scale doesn't work well.
in addition, i agree with you that it is easy to adapt to new engines and languages but as a programmer myself i can honestly tell you there are some languages and engines i would never use in a million years.
for the record i used to make games with my brother, but this isn't the case any more. his focus is more concentrated on different fields now, although he still has a passion for games it's not his priority. it's probably the best connection you can have to someone who is working on a game with you, but it still doesn't mean they are going to go through with it. my situation was a role reversal of yours (i was the workhorse), and i can tell you it was very hard to stay motivated doing projects even though i cared a lot about them.
you are pretty optimistic about this getting made but even that is only half the battle. getting a game finished is always great, but it won't always be as good as you hoped. this is the true battle and i think the fact that you have no experienced programmer is always going to be a huge issue.
good luck on this, but like i said, i doubt you will find anyone worthwhile right now simply because you don't have enough physical work to show off.
February 22, 2008
Jeremy wrote:
Appreciate the feedback gz. But even though the odds of me finding a worthwhile programmer may be slim, I am at least going to try. And have you ever seen somebody try this hard? (under the same circumstances)
February 22, 2008
Jeremy wrote:
Also, gz, would you be able to tell me who you are? Your sentiments and writing style are similar to someone I know...
February 22, 2008
Linternet wrote:
Jeremy,
Do you use any instant messenger accounts? I am an experienced programmer who might be interested in taking the lead programmer role on your project. However, I would like to discuss a few things best articulated via IM before submitting an application.
Do you use any instant messenger accounts? I am an experienced programmer who might be interested in taking the lead programmer role on your project. However, I would like to discuss a few things best articulated via IM before submitting an application.
February 22, 2008
Linternet wrote:
You can contact me at CompBriL on AIM or at compbril@hotmail.com on MSN. If you use another service, I can get an account.
February 22, 2008
XZodia wrote:
I'm a very experienced programmer, however I program in C#.Net which I'm fairly sure can't be compiled for anything other than a PC or Xbox 360.
However, XNA is very good, when XNA 3.0 comes out it would be possible to submit games for the XBox Live Arcade and Zune, and I've already started a 3D engine with it.
If your interested -
MSN: xzodia@hotmail.com
AIM: XZeon XZodia
However, XNA is very good, when XNA 3.0 comes out it would be possible to submit games for the XBox Live Arcade and Zune, and I've already started a 3D engine with it.
If your interested -
MSN: xzodia@hotmail.com
AIM: XZeon XZodia
February 22, 2008
gtdev wrote:
XZodia - C# is compiled at runtime, much like Java, and thus runs fine on all platforms provided the framework is installed.
If I didn't have several projects of my own right now, I'd consider applying.
If I didn't have several projects of my own right now, I'd consider applying.
February 22, 2008
UR Mom wrote:
Why don't you kids build a few simple games first, to flesh out the learning curves, workloads, time involved, etc.etc. before tackling your "dream" project? Your approach is completely upsidedown.
February 22, 2008
Experienced multiplayer game programmer wrote:
I agree with UR Mom, you guys are going for financial suicide. If you start your project without networking in mind, its going to be an incredibly hard and time consuming task to implement afterward. Still you seemed passionate, wish you the best of luck...you'll need it.
February 22, 2008
experience programmer wrote:
*agrees with all the other experienced programmers that posted here*
Come on, programming will be around 90% of the work, but based on your profit share, only about 20% (out of maximum 30%) goes to the lead programmer. I'd rather work on my own project where I get probably 70-90% of the share and the rest goes to the artist. Doesn't seem quite fair.
However, good luck in recruiting!
Come on, programming will be around 90% of the work, but based on your profit share, only about 20% (out of maximum 30%) goes to the lead programmer. I'd rather work on my own project where I get probably 70-90% of the share and the rest goes to the artist. Doesn't seem quite fair.
However, good luck in recruiting!
February 23, 2008
Jeremy wrote:
Programming is not anywhere near 90% of the work. Most programmer/artist duos split profit 50/50. But our team has more then that. We have marketing and design. That is one of the reasons we will be successful. But like I said, that distribution model is not even close to being set in stone.
UR Mom- this is certainly not our dream project. But besides, this is the whole reason we are looking for an experienced programmer; so that we will be more prepared for this project. If we can't find a programmer, then switching to a smaller game will be looked into. But I am confident I will find this programmer.
Linternet- email sent.
UR Mom- this is certainly not our dream project. But besides, this is the whole reason we are looking for an experienced programmer; so that we will be more prepared for this project. If we can't find a programmer, then switching to a smaller game will be looked into. But I am confident I will find this programmer.
Linternet- email sent.
February 23, 2008
Chris Hurn wrote:
Saw an ad for this on one of the foruns, I just wanted to say good luck, and lets face it - it's good to find someone leading a project who isn't like "hey guys im making a game i need a programmer k". I'll be keeping my eye on this one. :) Can't be of service I'm afraid, I'm not a programmer.
Chris
Chris
February 23, 2008
February 24, 2008
XZodia wrote:
@gtdev - I know C# is compiled at runtime (or rather JIT) and I understand there are C# compilers for other platforms. However, I'm fairly sure such compilers can't include references to any .net framework libraries, correct me if I wrong.
February 24, 2008
deadeye wrote:
UR Mom is right. As a beginning programmer and game designer, I had big plans too. I started right in on my big project. Guess what? It's still sitting there. I have other, smaller projects finished, but my big one was too big to make a start with.
THIS HAPPENS TO EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF THEIR AMBITION. YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT.
You need to start smaller. Get your team together and design a few VERY small games. Make a multi-player pong game. Then make a small 2d shmup. Then make a couple other things that you can complete within a few weeks or months.
THIS EXPERIENCE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN GAME DESIGN.
Completing a project, no matter how small, is the very best thing your team can do for itself. It gives you the tools you need to deal with problems when they arise. It gives you a first-hand knowledge of the process, and the means to streamline your workflow. Yes, making a pong clone or a simple shmup can do that for you.
Not to mention nobody will make your game for you. Sure you have artists and story people, great. That has nothing to do with making gameplay usable or fun. The brunt of the work is on the programmer. All real programmers know this. If you want your game made, your best bet is to sit down for six months and learn programming yourself.
If, by some miracle, you do find a programmer (a REAL programmer, as in a professional) then your inexperience with making games is going to drive him away shortly into the dev process. Right now you have nothing going for you but neurotic dreams and a huge ego. If you truly want to be a game designer, you need a reality check. Come back down to earth. Start at square one. You can't jump to square one-hundred and expect people to jump with you. You're not a millionaire investor with a great game idea, you're just some guy like the rest of us. Everyone has great game ideas. EVERYONE. The only way ideas become reality is by being real.
THIS HAPPENS TO EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF THEIR AMBITION. YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT.
You need to start smaller. Get your team together and design a few VERY small games. Make a multi-player pong game. Then make a small 2d shmup. Then make a couple other things that you can complete within a few weeks or months.
THIS EXPERIENCE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN GAME DESIGN.
Completing a project, no matter how small, is the very best thing your team can do for itself. It gives you the tools you need to deal with problems when they arise. It gives you a first-hand knowledge of the process, and the means to streamline your workflow. Yes, making a pong clone or a simple shmup can do that for you.
Not to mention nobody will make your game for you. Sure you have artists and story people, great. That has nothing to do with making gameplay usable or fun. The brunt of the work is on the programmer. All real programmers know this. If you want your game made, your best bet is to sit down for six months and learn programming yourself.
If, by some miracle, you do find a programmer (a REAL programmer, as in a professional) then your inexperience with making games is going to drive him away shortly into the dev process. Right now you have nothing going for you but neurotic dreams and a huge ego. If you truly want to be a game designer, you need a reality check. Come back down to earth. Start at square one. You can't jump to square one-hundred and expect people to jump with you. You're not a millionaire investor with a great game idea, you're just some guy like the rest of us. Everyone has great game ideas. EVERYONE. The only way ideas become reality is by being real.
February 25, 2008
Experienced Game Designer wrote:
I would say to any experienced programmers out there this, do not let this pass! This is a big opportunity for you! It's going to be hard to find any group this serious about producing a game!
Don't let this pass.
–Patrick
Don't let this pass.
–Patrick
February 25, 2008
Experienced Game Programmer wrote:
*agrees with UR mom* It is somewhat unrealistic to expect someone to jump on board and do all the programming. You guys didn't do anything for the game except concept images. Honestly, you need to do more! The concept images are not very convincing.
As a programmer, I would not want to do all the work to then find out that the project is cancelled because the graphics are not going to be delivered -OR- turns out the 3D models (?) created look crappy. Your artist has potential, but so far there is nothing there...
As a programmer, I would not want to do all the work to then find out that the project is cancelled because the graphics are not going to be delivered -OR- turns out the 3D models (?) created look crappy. Your artist has potential, but so far there is nothing there...
February 26, 2008
Jeremy wrote:
Patrick is right, this is a good opportunity for you. But so is everybody else. We do need to start smaller. So, mainly because of the indiegamer.com forums, we have decided to create a small game first, whether we recruit a programmer or not.
Expect a new blog post soon.
Expect a new blog post soon.
February 26, 2008
Linternet wrote:
As an experienced programmer and designer I need to say a few things.
First, anyone who thinks programming is 90% of the work on a game has, clearly, never done this before (or has only done very minor projects).
Programming distinguishes a computer game from other forms of entertainment and, therefore, drives progress. Art, however, is at least its equal in workload (most games, in fact, have more artists than programmers) and anyone who underestimates the importance of good design and marketing will likely end up with a lousy game that nobody knows about.
Secondly, there's no reason for a new team to start with Pong or Tetris or Pacman or whatever. I agree that most newer development teams tend to overextend themselves but there is no reason a large project can't be broken down, built a little bit at a time, and released in stages.
Third, many people jump down the throat of anyone looking to lead a team who isn't a programmer or artist. This is a mistake.
A team leader's job is to get everything done using the limits of his talents and resources. It certainly helps when the team leader can rely more on his content creation talents and less on other resources but it is by no means the only way to build a game. Can't program? Pay for it. Can't pay for it? Find someone believes in your vison. That didn't work? Find newer programmers looking for experience. Still don't have someone? Pick up a programming book and start learning. Any way you slice it, the bottom line is that a sucessful team leader is the one who understands and accepts the long term commitment to getting things done using whatever means are necessary (within various legal and moral constraints, of course :) )
Most would be "exclusive designers" fail in this regard because when they ask for a programmer they're really looking to pass off the burden of being the "driving force" I described above. They want to spit out ideas and watch others make them happen. This is clearly not the case here.
Finally, there are plenty of programmers out there who want to get their name on a game without the burden of management. Finding a good programmer is always difficult, especially when you're not paying, but the independent game development community wouldn't exist if nobody was willing to take a chance.
First, anyone who thinks programming is 90% of the work on a game has, clearly, never done this before (or has only done very minor projects).
Programming distinguishes a computer game from other forms of entertainment and, therefore, drives progress. Art, however, is at least its equal in workload (most games, in fact, have more artists than programmers) and anyone who underestimates the importance of good design and marketing will likely end up with a lousy game that nobody knows about.
Secondly, there's no reason for a new team to start with Pong or Tetris or Pacman or whatever. I agree that most newer development teams tend to overextend themselves but there is no reason a large project can't be broken down, built a little bit at a time, and released in stages.
Third, many people jump down the throat of anyone looking to lead a team who isn't a programmer or artist. This is a mistake.
A team leader's job is to get everything done using the limits of his talents and resources. It certainly helps when the team leader can rely more on his content creation talents and less on other resources but it is by no means the only way to build a game. Can't program? Pay for it. Can't pay for it? Find someone believes in your vison. That didn't work? Find newer programmers looking for experience. Still don't have someone? Pick up a programming book and start learning. Any way you slice it, the bottom line is that a sucessful team leader is the one who understands and accepts the long term commitment to getting things done using whatever means are necessary (within various legal and moral constraints, of course :) )
Most would be "exclusive designers" fail in this regard because when they ask for a programmer they're really looking to pass off the burden of being the "driving force" I described above. They want to spit out ideas and watch others make them happen. This is clearly not the case here.
Finally, there are plenty of programmers out there who want to get their name on a game without the burden of management. Finding a good programmer is always difficult, especially when you're not paying, but the independent game development community wouldn't exist if nobody was willing to take a chance.
February 26, 2008
deadeye wrote:
Linternet said:
"Programming distinguishes a computer game from other forms of entertainment and, therefore, drives progress. Art, however, is at least its equal in workload (most games, in fact, have more artists than programmers)"
Dude, artists are a dime a dozen. I went to art school. Programmers are not. Good game art is much, much easier to create than good code.
And the fact that most (commercial) games have more artists than programmers only goes to prove that programmers have more workload.
Linternet said:
"Secondly, there's no reason for a new team to start with Pong or Tetris or Pacman or whatever."
None of these "entrepreneurs" has ever made a game. Yes, they need to start with pong. Every game designer needs to start somewhere. You can't climb Mt. Everest without practice. As an "experienced programmer and designer" I'm sure you remember your first "Hello World!" program.
Linternet said:
"Most would be "exclusive designers" ... ask for a programmer ... to pass off the burden... They want to spit out ideas and watch others make them happen. This is clearly not the case here."
No, that is exactly the case here.
Linternet said:
"Finally, there are plenty of programmers out there who want to get their name on a game without the burden of management."
Is that so? Then where are these hordes of programmers knocking down J-Fiz's door to fight for the chance to make his game?
"Programming distinguishes a computer game from other forms of entertainment and, therefore, drives progress. Art, however, is at least its equal in workload (most games, in fact, have more artists than programmers)"
Dude, artists are a dime a dozen. I went to art school. Programmers are not. Good game art is much, much easier to create than good code.
And the fact that most (commercial) games have more artists than programmers only goes to prove that programmers have more workload.
Linternet said:
"Secondly, there's no reason for a new team to start with Pong or Tetris or Pacman or whatever."
None of these "entrepreneurs" has ever made a game. Yes, they need to start with pong. Every game designer needs to start somewhere. You can't climb Mt. Everest without practice. As an "experienced programmer and designer" I'm sure you remember your first "Hello World!" program.
Linternet said:
"Most would be "exclusive designers" ... ask for a programmer ... to pass off the burden... They want to spit out ideas and watch others make them happen. This is clearly not the case here."
No, that is exactly the case here.
Linternet said:
"Finally, there are plenty of programmers out there who want to get their name on a game without the burden of management."
Is that so? Then where are these hordes of programmers knocking down J-Fiz's door to fight for the chance to make his game?
February 26, 2008
deadeye wrote:
Jeremy said:
"So, mainly because of the indiegamer.com forums, we have decided to create a small game first, whether we recruit a programmer or not."
This is good news. I wish you the best of luck.
"So, mainly because of the indiegamer.com forums, we have decided to create a small game first, whether we recruit a programmer or not."
This is good news. I wish you the best of luck.
February 26, 2008
Linternet wrote:
deadeye said:
"Dude, artists are a dime a dozen. I went to art school. Programmers are not. Good game art is much, much easier to create than good code."
Go to some independent game development forums, and monitor the recruitment threads for a while. Then tell me if there are more teams with artists looking for programmers, or vice versa.
There may be more "artists" than "programmers" in the general population (I don't know for a fact), but for those with the burning ambition to make a game, programmers are FAR more common.
deadeye said:
"And the fact that most (commercial) games have more artists than programmers only goes to prove that programmers have more workload."
This makes no sense. Successful companies aren't in the habit of wasting money. They hire exactly the number of people they need. No more and no less. Why would they need more artists than programmers if there wasn't more work for the artists?
deadeye said:
None of these "entrepreneurs" has ever made a game. Yes, they need to start with pong. Every game designer needs to start somewhere. You can't climb Mt. Everest without practice. As an "experienced programmer and designer" I'm sure you remember your first "Hello World!" program.
Did I say one should start by doing the equivalent of "climbing Mt. Everest"? I agree whole-heartedly with the "start simple" concept.
However, If you want to build an MMORPG you can start by making a completely unrelated game (like Tetris)for "practice" or you can start by creating a game on a single texture surface, where a single player with a built-in weapon kills one type of money-yielding monster in an attempt to collect the most money in a certain amount of time.
With today's resources the latter is not siginficantly more work than the former (especially if you're doing something like top-down 2D) and, if treated like a complete game, it gives the team the necessary practice while progressing them towards their goal.
Even if you had to rewrite the code to your "simple game", to accomodate the larger and more feature-filled desgin of your next game (which is likely, but you'd have to do this anyway if you started with Tetris) you'll still have a better idea of how to deal with at least some of the issues you'll face and you have a much better chance of being able to reuse code if you try to make a simple game that's somewhat related to your ultimate goal.
deadeye said:
"No, that is exactly the case here."
If you're going to quote me, please do so completely and in the proper context.
Almost everybody who creates a game more complicated than Tetris "passes the burden" of some aspect of game development onto other people.
For me, as a programmer, I would attempt to passing the bulk or entirety of the artistic, musical, writing, documentation, marketing and design aspects on to other people.
Even the rare individual who is talented enough to do the art, and the programming, and the music etc... almost always recruits others or contracts certain work out because it's a tremendous amount of work and doing it all often leads to decreased quality.
As a team leader, however, the fact that I'm doing programming and trying to get others to do artwork doesn't diminish my responsibility to get the artwork (and everything else) done! As I alluded to, when I lead a team I try to get the best artist I can, If I can't get a a satsifactory artist, I'd better be willing to pay for it, If I can't afford it, my game's gonna have stick figures until I find someone.
My point, is that success as a team leader comes when one has an unwavering commitment to moving forward regardless of the numerous inevitable setbacks. From their help wanted post one can see that JForce games understands this.
deadeye said:
"Is that so? Then where are these hordes of programmers knocking down J-Fiz's door to fight for the chance to make his game? "
Again, monitor the recruitment forums of any independent game development site. Yes, many of the best programmers are already in the industry or working on their own projects but you will find a fair number of threads with a "Programmer looking for experience" or someone who's interested in game programming without the extra work of design and management. Also "programmers looking for experience" aren't always completely new programmers, sometime't they're experienced business programmers looking for a first foray into gaming or someone who has written small games and is looking for something bigger.
In any event, I didn't say it was going to be easy or quick, but if they look long enough, and carefully enough, (remember the unwavering commitment) they'll either find someone or develop the necessary skills.
"Dude, artists are a dime a dozen. I went to art school. Programmers are not. Good game art is much, much easier to create than good code."
Go to some independent game development forums, and monitor the recruitment threads for a while. Then tell me if there are more teams with artists looking for programmers, or vice versa.
There may be more "artists" than "programmers" in the general population (I don't know for a fact), but for those with the burning ambition to make a game, programmers are FAR more common.
deadeye said:
"And the fact that most (commercial) games have more artists than programmers only goes to prove that programmers have more workload."
This makes no sense. Successful companies aren't in the habit of wasting money. They hire exactly the number of people they need. No more and no less. Why would they need more artists than programmers if there wasn't more work for the artists?
deadeye said:
None of these "entrepreneurs" has ever made a game. Yes, they need to start with pong. Every game designer needs to start somewhere. You can't climb Mt. Everest without practice. As an "experienced programmer and designer" I'm sure you remember your first "Hello World!" program.
Did I say one should start by doing the equivalent of "climbing Mt. Everest"? I agree whole-heartedly with the "start simple" concept.
However, If you want to build an MMORPG you can start by making a completely unrelated game (like Tetris)for "practice" or you can start by creating a game on a single texture surface, where a single player with a built-in weapon kills one type of money-yielding monster in an attempt to collect the most money in a certain amount of time.
With today's resources the latter is not siginficantly more work than the former (especially if you're doing something like top-down 2D) and, if treated like a complete game, it gives the team the necessary practice while progressing them towards their goal.
Even if you had to rewrite the code to your "simple game", to accomodate the larger and more feature-filled desgin of your next game (which is likely, but you'd have to do this anyway if you started with Tetris) you'll still have a better idea of how to deal with at least some of the issues you'll face and you have a much better chance of being able to reuse code if you try to make a simple game that's somewhat related to your ultimate goal.
deadeye said:
"No, that is exactly the case here."
If you're going to quote me, please do so completely and in the proper context.
Almost everybody who creates a game more complicated than Tetris "passes the burden" of some aspect of game development onto other people.
For me, as a programmer, I would attempt to passing the bulk or entirety of the artistic, musical, writing, documentation, marketing and design aspects on to other people.
Even the rare individual who is talented enough to do the art, and the programming, and the music etc... almost always recruits others or contracts certain work out because it's a tremendous amount of work and doing it all often leads to decreased quality.
As a team leader, however, the fact that I'm doing programming and trying to get others to do artwork doesn't diminish my responsibility to get the artwork (and everything else) done! As I alluded to, when I lead a team I try to get the best artist I can, If I can't get a a satsifactory artist, I'd better be willing to pay for it, If I can't afford it, my game's gonna have stick figures until I find someone.
My point, is that success as a team leader comes when one has an unwavering commitment to moving forward regardless of the numerous inevitable setbacks. From their help wanted post one can see that JForce games understands this.
deadeye said:
"Is that so? Then where are these hordes of programmers knocking down J-Fiz's door to fight for the chance to make his game? "
Again, monitor the recruitment forums of any independent game development site. Yes, many of the best programmers are already in the industry or working on their own projects but you will find a fair number of threads with a "Programmer looking for experience" or someone who's interested in game programming without the extra work of design and management. Also "programmers looking for experience" aren't always completely new programmers, sometime't they're experienced business programmers looking for a first foray into gaming or someone who has written small games and is looking for something bigger.
In any event, I didn't say it was going to be easy or quick, but if they look long enough, and carefully enough, (remember the unwavering commitment) they'll either find someone or develop the necessary skills.
January 22, 2009
January 22, 2009
bored in high school(same one) wrote:
wait a minute... this is a year after anyone actually posted another comment...damn
January 22, 2009
Jeremy wrote:
Ha, still here, don't worry. He is learning XNA, he's pretty competent now. You should check out episode 8: http://jforcegames.com/blog...
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